Emily Kopp - Working with Managers, Rebranding, Co-Writing, and Creating Art

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You can also listen to this episode on iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher |

Emily Kopp returns for a Round 2 on the podcast. Kopp is a singer-songwriter, musician, producer, world traveler, and badass human based in Nashville, TN. To hear about her back story and lessons from booking her first shows, playing cover gigs, writing for synch placements on commercials, and backpacking the world, listen here. Since the last episode, she has continued producing and writing music for commercials, has gone on tour with Kacey Musgraves, played Bonnaroo, started working with a new management company, and is going to release a new EP under her new and rebranded project, Lowen, on October 25th. Her first single from the new EP, “Morning, Mourning” was released on August 1st of 2019. 

In this episode, we discuss what it’s like to work with a management company, what artists should look for in a manger, making great art, co-writing with other people, rebranding herself, recent adventures, and much more. Really excited to have her back on the show, and share her story up to this point. Emily has been one of my best friends for a long time, and it has been very exciting to see her evolve as a songwriter, musician, and producer, and watching her journey to do many amazing things and create “good fucking art!” 

Quotes from Emily Kopp
“A manager needs to be someone with good intention, and not trying to sell you a fake dream.”
“With anyone you’re going into business with, especially a manager, needs to be someone that has integrity.” 
“If they don’t know what they’re doing exactly, they need to be willing to go to know what they’re doing.”
“Sometimes the work we physically see being done, it feels like being productive, but it’s not actually.”
“Touring is what you get to do only when your art is in a place where that’s justified.”
“The main goal should be making the best music you can and finding yourself as an artist.”
“You need to be making good fucking art!”
“Just because you played one festival one time, doesn’t mean the rest of your career will just begin to unravel.”
“It’s important now more than ever to get yourself a little recording rig and start learning how to record.”
“When no one is looking and paying attention, that’s the time to explore.”
“Always come prepared with a seed of an idea, because that is king.”
“Being a good listener is the most important thing.”
“I also suggest doing three-way writes.”

Highlights from this Episode
[4:38] Working with a Management Company
[7:20] What should artists look for in a manager and how do they let go?
[11:40] Making great art versus touring
[17:35] Playing at Bonnaroo 2019
[20:32] Touring with Kacey Musgraves and playing the Ryman Auditorium
[22:40] How much has living in Nashville impacted her career?
[25:15] Moving to a major music market like Nashville, New York, or Los Angeles
[30:23] New single “Morning, Mourning”
[32:25] Emily’s journaling process
[34:45] Changing her name from Emily Kopp to Lowen
[38:48] Where to being when it comes to co-writing
[40:30] When to write with more established songwriters
[45:14] Learning production as a songwriter and getting a starting rig
[49:25] The communication of setting up a co-write
[51:42] What to bring and prepare to a writing session
[53:07] Things to avoid during a writing session
[57:25] Getting to Know Emily Kopp 

Links to people, places, and things mentioned
Chance the Rapper
Kacey Musgraves
Ryman Auditorium
Jack Antonoff
Brandi Carlile
Chris Stapleton
Jeffrey James [Episode #041]
Max Martin
Blue Microphones
Logic [Recording Program]
Pro Tools [Recording Program]
Cubase [Recording Program]
Destiny’s Child
Christina Aguilera
Brene Brown
Oprah SuperSoul Sunday Podcast 

Emily Kopp’s Definition of Making It:
“When you’re in the flow of a path of finding your total happiness, your total joy, and making choices that align with those things. You’re making it.” 

Get in touch with Emily Kopp
Instagram | Twitter

Keep in touch:

Host: Chris Goyzueta (Chris G.)
Producer: Jason Trosclair
Executive Producer: ONElive Creative Agency  
Music: Emily Kopp

Cheryl B. Engelhardt - Building, Managing and ROCKIN’ Your Email Subscribers for Musicians

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You can also listen to this episode on iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher |

When you post on social media, on average, anywhere from 0% to 5% of your audience see your post. The acception to that algorithm rule is when people are actually engaging with your post by commenting, sharing, and liking it. However, the less engagement, the lower the impression rate. Meaning, if you have 1,000 followers - 0 to 50 people see your post. However, the average open rate on emails is closer to 20%, and if you write really good emails that percentage can be significantly higher. This means instead of 0 to 50 people, 200+ people are actually opening and reading your email, and 66% at least see your email. That’s 660 people on your list of 1,000. With those kind of odds, don’t you think email management and building your email list as a musician, and really any business, should be part of your strategy? Maybe even one of the main focuses of your strategy? What has been holding you up from building, managing, and ROCKIN’ your email list? Is it lack of creativity on what to send or do you think it’s to time consuming? Today’s guest Cheryl B. Engelhardt raised over $40,000 from an email list with less than 2,000 subscribers. Motivated now?

Cheryl B. Engelhardt is a true pioneer in the world of DIY Musicians, and one the only or very few people that extensively talks about building and managing your email lists. In this episodes, she shares some amazing insight on creating a welcome series or welcome sequence for your email subscribers. Also, she shares some of the strategies she used for her crowdfunding campaign to raise over 5 figures on consistent basis with less than 2,000 subscribers. We discuss some amazing insight on the right time to start asking your audience for money, and when to start a crowdfunding campaign. The beauty of it all is that Cheryl is a fellow musician and songwriter at the core. She started her journey writing jingles and scores, and continues having a successful career in synch licensing. One of my favorite things about Cheryl is that she used the tools that have helped her with her career to teach other musicians on how they can do the same. She offers some amazing courses to teach you how to ROCK YOUR EMAIL LIST, writing a Perfect Pitch, and so much more.

There are so many ways to make a full time and fulfilling living being a musician in today’s world. You don’t have to wait for a label, manager, or agent to give you permission. Give yourself permission to educate yourself, learn new thing, and becoming a practitioner in the things you learn. The only way to get better is to start doing. Cheryl is a great example of how so many musicians today can find creative ways to “live the life they love.”

To learn more about Cheryl check out http://www.inthekeyofsuccess.com/ and https://cbemusic.com/

Highlights from this Episode
[4:05] Working with Ari Herstand
[7:40] Writing Bio’s, books, and more
[12:57] Sharing your story and journey
[17:25] Scuba Diving for the United States Government to a Music Career
[21:48] Coaching Resources for Musicians
[29:45] Communicating with your audience over email instead of social media
[33:00] Strategies to building your email list
[38:42] Email welcome series
[43:15] Sending a regular newsletter or broadcast
[50:42] Creating a Year’s Worth of Content with 30 Emails
[54:35] Crowdfunding through your email list and asking fans for money
[1:00:00] Rapid Fire Questions - Getting to Know Cheryl B. Engelhardt

Quotes from Cheryl B. Engelhardt
“It’s so easy now days to find the person before you even find the music.”
“The things that makes the story and the bio really interesting, is the points of transition.”
“What were the transitions, and what then were the decisions.”
“It’s awesome to not have to be full-time on the road and still have an artist career.”
“Get clear on what you want so it’s very obvious on your website and emails.”
“You get undivided attention when you’re reading an email.”
“Emails are way more likely to get delivered and seen than a Facebook post.”
“66% of people are more likely to purchase something through your email than the same ad over social media.”
[About Email and Social Media] “It’s not one or the other, it’s about how we can make these things work together.”
“Every email should have a call to action even if it’s not a promotion.”
“Your welcome series is meant to train them [subscribers] and engage with you in a certain way.”
“The most opened email will be the first email, because people sign-up for a thing, and they want the thing.”
“The key is to be consistent, so they can manage their expectations of you, and you’re not surprising or disrupting them.”
“The once a month rule, is a very outdated music industry rule.”
“If you can write 30 emails, and send one out every 2 weeks or 3 weeks, that’s a years worth of content.”
“When someone is reading a newsletters with so many things in it, you’re distracting them from yourself.”  
“If that person said no, Fuck It, on to the next.”

Links to people, places, and things mentioned
Ari Herstand
“Inevitably” by Cheryl B. Engelhardt
United States Geological Survey
Cornell University
Lou Playa
Anthony Snape
Pre-Writing Your Automated Emails
Sara Bareilles
Dave Matthews
Tim Reynolds
Amy Porterfield
Key Conversations with Cheryl B. Engelhardt

Cheryl’s Definition of Making It:
“Where I’m constantly participating in projects that allow me to be fully self-expressed in partnership and creative.”

Get in touch with Cheryl B. Engelhardt
All the stuff I offer musicians lives: inthekey.co/results
Rock Your Email List course: inthekey.co/emailcourse
The Perfect Pitch course: inthekey.co/perfectpitch
Free Checklist on Pitching Music: inthekey.co/prime
MX4 course: inthekey.co/mx4
Podcast: inthekey.co/keypodcast
Cheryl’s music: cbemusic.co/official
Instagram: cbemusic.co/cbegram

Keep in touch:

Host: Chris Goyzueta (Chris G.)
Producer: Jason Trosclair
Executive Producer: ONElive Creative Agency  
Music: Emily Kopp

Bree Noble - A Path to Being a Profitable Independent Musician

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You can also listen to this episode on iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher |

The beauty of today’s music business, is that there are so many ways musicians can make a living. It’s important to remember that every artist is a business, and with being a business there are certain fundamental and advanced techniques that everyone can build a successful career with. Bree Noble is a singer-songwriter, podcaster, coach and co-founder of the Profitable Musicians Summit. Bree is focused on mentoring and coaching musicians through a step by step program that helps guide musicians through their journey of making a living doing music. In this episode, Bree discusses some of her principles on how to build email lists, touring and show strategy, and much more.

To learn more about Bree Noble http://femusician.com and get the free guide of 19 sources of income at http://femusician.com/income.  

Highlights from this Episode
[4:45] The Profitable Musicians Summit
[11:17] Resources available for Musicians by Bree Noble
[12:44] Projects Bree Noble is involved in
[17:37] How Bree got started in the music industry
[21:05] “The Music Industry Game” and common mistakes artists make
[22:46] How to know if an artist needs a manager or when to get one
[24:55] How often to play when first starting out
[27:08] When to transition from playing open mics and coffeehouses to house concerts
[29:28] Building the first 100 email list subscribers
[34:40] How often to send email newsletters to fans
[36:35] What to send to your mailing list
[40:40] Writing engaging posts on social media
[43:30] Facebook Groups versus Newsletters
[45:45] Touring strategy and when to start playing outside of your hometown
[51:25] Rapid Fire Questions

Quotes from Bree Noble
“I just started getting out there and got scrappy.”
“We get into these tracks with all these gatekeepers out there, and getting them to open the gate.”
“You need to be doing is not going to get a manager, you need to get customers, fans.”
“Become an entertainer, instead of someone who just does music.”
“Every fan that you get, you need to feel thankful and lucky for them.”
“In the foundation stage, you’re building your email list to 100 people.”
“Once you get that ball rolling with house concerts, it becomes easier.”
“Some people think you have to earn every single fan through blood, sweat and tears, that’s not true.”
“It doesn’t have to be as complicated as most of you are making it.”
“I wasn’t afraid to ask for a referral.”

Links to people, places, and things mentioned
Profitable Musicians Summit
Angela Mastrogiacomo
DIY Musician Conference
Female Indie Musician Community
Tyrone Wells
Zac Brown Band
Carlene Thiessen
Dawn Beyer
Rick Barker
The Pointer Sisters
[BOOK] “The E Myth” by Michael E Berger
[Documentary] 20 Feet from Stardom
[Documentary] Metallica “Some Kind of Monster”
[Documentary] Metallica “This Monster Lives”

Bree Noble’s Definition of Making It:
“Doing what you love that gets you excited to get out of bed everyday, and not doing it on anyone else's schedule.”  

Get in touch with Bree Noble
Instagram | Twitter | Facebook
Musician's Profit Path Masterclass: www.musiciansprofitpath.com
Income Guide: http://femusician.com/income
Main site: http://femusician.com

Keep in touch:

Host: Chris Goyzueta (Chris G.)
Producer: Jason Trosclair
Executive Producer: ONElive Creative Agency  
Music: Emily Kopp

Dawn Beyer - Building a Music Career on Your Own Terms with Live Video as the Foundation and How You Can Do It Too (S02, E01)

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You can also listen to this episode on iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher |

The Podcast is BACK with Season 2!! This season, we’re coming back with a deeper focus on education and lessons for independent musicians and music business students across the country. The podcast will range from inspiring independent musicians living a career on their terms, to influential marketers and entrepreneurs, and highlighting many of the different careers within the music business.

The first guest of the new season is the return of Dawn Beyer! Dawn Beyer is a true pioneer and living proof of how you can build a career as an independent artist in today’s music industry. In the last episode, we learned about her journey as a struggling musician in Nashville making the rounds on Broadway, where she was playing for tips. After getting sick and worried about how to make ends meet by not being able to play on Broadway, she discovered Facebook Live. This discovery was a career changer for Dawn. In her first year, she made over $74k from tips with Facebook Live and a PayPal tip button. This new journey has led to true fans of Dawn’s music, who went from watching on Facebook Live to paying her to play in their living rooms, parties, and so much more. Today, Dawn offers some amazing coaching to teach other musicians on how she did, and how they can do it too.

After my first conversation with Dawn, I was really inspired by her amazing spirit and positive attitude to take on the music industry and find her way to push through and live her dream. Dawn didn’t wait around for a manager, label, or agent to give her permission to make a living doing music. She gave herself permission, and she went out and did it. In the first episode, she shared her amazing journey on how she made a living and built the foundation of her career after discovering Facebook Live. Today, she is touring the country playing for fans she made from her Facebook Live videos, but is also giving back and teaching other musicians how they can make a full time living playing music, and do it on their terms.

To learn more about Dawn Byer, please visit https://www.therealnashville.com/ and http://www.therealmakingit.com/

Highlights from this Episode
[4:12] What’s new in the life of Dawn Beyer
[7:28] Dawn’s 30-Day Tour
[8:55] Structure of Living Room Concerts
[10:58] Finding people to host you for a house concert
[15:26] Dawn’s content strategy
[17:03] What types of emails do people want to read?
[18:18] The programs Dawn is offering for musicians
[25:32] Songwriting process
[28:53] How often Dawn writes
[34:00] Details about Dawn’s courses and what people can expect
[36:48] Success stories from the program
[40:10] Creating a virtual tip jar
[46:35] Common mistakes musicians make  
[50:34] Philosophy on Touring
[58:00] The lesson that took Dawn the longest to learn
[1:00:11] Rapid Fire Questions

Quotes from Dawn Beyer
“You have all the opportunity, and all the platforms available today.”
“I didn’t even have a laptop when I first started this.”
“Gather your core group, figure out who they actually are, and send them to where you can connect with them.”
“Figure out what making it really is for you.”
“There might be some other way, there might be some other making it.”
“It’s about not caring what other people think you should do, and making it for you.”
“The best way to play your own music is to get off Broadway.”
“The platform is what puts us out there and lets us connect with someone.”
“You have to have the ability to come through someone’s phone and be in their living room.”
“Once they are connected, they will be there for every album, every show, and everything you do.”
“If you’re writing about something you don’t care about, people will feel that.”
“Being real and raw, and just putting it out there, is the thing that anyone can do.”
“I don’t see any reason why you would start out playing bars first, when I can play in front of 50 people on Facebook right now.”
“If you’re going to go on the road driving from place to place, make as much out of that online as you can.”

Links to people, places, and things mentioned
Dawn Beyer - First Episode on the Podcast
The Real Making It
Rick Barker
Garth Brooks
Cosmic Contract
Pearl Mae Foundation
Jim Palmer

Connect with Dawn Beyer

Keep in touch:

Host: Chris Goyzueta (Chris G.)
Producer: Jason Trosclair
Executive Producer: ONElive Creative Agency  
Music: Emily Kopp

Tommy Darker - Creating Unique Business Models And Strategies for DIY Musicians

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You can also listen to this episode on iTunes | SpotifyStitcher |

It’s important for us to remember that everyone is a human being. Behind all the usernames and social media handles, there is a real person behind there just like you and I. Think about how would you try to connect with a real person at a networking event, at church, a party, a concert, or at a restaurant, before you reach out to someone. I’d like to believe that everyone wants to be heard, and is trying to figure out a way to can live a better life and be able to “live the life they love.” Not only is this something I truly believe in, but it’s also one of the biggest messages by this episodes guest, Tommy Darker.

Tommy Darker is a DIY Musician and Entrepreneur. He has mastered the Alexander Osterwalder concept of creating unique Business Models and has applied it to the music business for musicians. Tommy is also the founder of Whiise, a platform where any musician can go and ask their questions about the music business to industry leaders from around the world. He’s a regular guest lecturer at the University of Westminster in London, England and the Berklee College of Music in Valencia, Spain. In this conversation, we talk about Tommy’s story being from Greece and now is based in London, England to how musicians can use the business model canvas, some unique and creative strategies to get your music on more Spotify playlists, and much more.

To learn more about Tommy Darker, visit http://www.tommydarker.com/ and ask your question at https://www.whiise.me/.

Grab the Music Business Models eBook or one of the many ebooks from Tommy Darker's Library. 

Highlights from this Episode
[3:48] What Tommy likes to teach about at Universities
[5:18] Tommy’s ideal music business program
[6:57] Where should someone visit in Greece
[7:55] The message Tommy wants people to learn from his Kickstarter Campaign
[13:34] Musicprenuer Hub (now Whiise)
[16:00] Topics people have the most questions about
[17:21] Where he finds experts and how someone can become an expert for Whiise
[18:44] Tommy’s Philosophies on Touring being located in Europe
[25:48] What is the business model canvas and how can musicians use it
[29:20] Where Tommy likes to start with the business model canvas
[38:12] What is value proposition
[44:02] Tommy’s Philosophies on Key Partners
[48:12] Where does an Artist Manager fall into all of this
[50:48] What are channels of distribution musicians should focus on and Spotify Playlists
[57:46] How can Musicians use Facebook Bots
[1:02:01] Strategies on building relationships with Spotify Playlist curators
[1:07:22] Setting Goals
[1:10:25] Getting to know Tommy Darker

Quotes from Tommy Darker
“If you just put this mp3 on stream or Spotify, you’re missing out on a lot of opportunities.”
“When you talk with your community, you learn so many things.”
“There is tons of knowledge, and if you don’t share it, it doesn’t exist.”
“I want people to be immersed in what I do.”
“When you can control the experience...you can actually create something that’s way more valuable than what Spotify or other services dictate what you can do.”
“I usually prefer to go the hard way and find venues or platforms that can help me curate an experience.”
“Go out and do stuff, and learn, and create your own playbook.”
“Try to start realizing what kind of audience do you have.”
“Failing is part of the process.”
“Try to create something that will get an emotional response out of people.”
“People like connecting.”
“Usually people will pay much much more when what they buy makes them feel something.”
“Partnerships is all about relationships.”
“Facebook is a place where friends hang out, you need to create an experience that’s not salesy.”
“People like asking questions.”
“Remember, everybody that you’re talking with is a human being.”
“If you start with thinking with how can I get on the playlist, you already lost the battle.”
“The quickest way you can add value to somebody is to connect two people to each other.”
“The more people you know, the more you can get to know more people.”
“You can’t really lie to yourself if you have written down what you need to do.”

Links to people, places, and things mentioned
University of Westminster
Berklee College of Music - Valencia, Spain
Full Sail University
Tommy Darker Kickstarter Campaign
YOUNow Live Streaming
Sofar Sounds
Next Big Sound
Indepreneur Indies (Facebook Group)
Killing Joke
Andrew Dubber
Pledge Music
ManyChat (Facebook Bot)
Facebook Workplace
Depeche Mode
Problem Solving 101: A Simple Book for Smart People by Ken Watanabe
Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products by Nir Eyal  
How Music Works by David Byrne
The Storytelling Animal: How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall
Marketing Lessons from the Grateful Dead by David Meerman  

Tommy’s Definition of Making It
“To become better than myself yesterday.”

Getting in touch with Tommy Darker

Related Podcast Episodes:
1. Ari Herstand - Creative Ways to Build a Following, Generate Revenue, And Promote Your Music
2. Kyle Lemaire - Disrupting the Traditional Music Business
3. Dawn Beyer - Earning $74k with Facbeook Live 
4. Cathy Heller - Building a Career with Sync Licensing 
5. Shannon Curtis - How to Earn Over $50k in 4 Months with House Concerts

Keep in touch:

Host: Chris Goyzueta (Chris G.)
Producer: Jason Trosclair
Executive Producer: ONElive Creative Agency  
Music: Emily Kopp

Cathy Heller - Building a Career with Sync Licensing And Teaching Musicians How They Can Too

Cathy Heller, Sync Licensing Agent, Entrepreneur, Podcaster

You can also listen to this episode on iTunes | Stitcher |

One of the most frequent types of questions I get from musicians and music business students are related to sync licensing, and when receiving these questions, I had the perfect person in mind to answer them. It’s been a few years since I’ve talked to Cathy Heller, but I knew she was the one I absolutely had to get on the show to speak about sync licensing. From when we first met, she has always been very passionate about coaching songwriters about the types of songs that get placed, and always had amazing resources and information available to help guide them. It was so wonderful reconnecting with Cathy and having her as a guest on the show to help answer some of those common questions. However, it is also an amazing gift to our listeners to have such an incredibly passionate, positive, and motivational mentor and teacher sharing an inspirational message that a successful and fulfilling career in music is possible, even without a record deal.

Cathy Heller has built a career in the Sync Licensing world after building a career with placements in TV Shows, Movies, and Commercials. After her success, she started her own company, Catch The Moon Music, where she represents and helps other musicians with sync licensing success. She’s an incredible teacher and mentor, offering consultations, and courses for musicians. One of her newest passions as a teacher includes being the host of her own podcast, Don’t Keep Your Day Job. In this conversation, you’ll learn what types of songs have the most success in sync licensing, common themes and genres that have the most success, how to get a sync licensing agent, and much more. In this episode, she also shares her meticulous researching and note-taking skills, that have helped develop her wisdom and understanding of what works best in the world of sync licensing.

Grab this Amazing Free Download from Cathy for our Podcast Listeners

Highlights from this Episode
[4:08] Meeting Michael Jordan
[9:30] Journey of starting her own podcast - Don’t Keep Your Day Job
[13:49] Cathy Heller’s story
[29:30] Common misconceptions and mistakes musicians make with sync licensing
[38:04] The process of a song being chosen for sync placement by a Music Supervisor
[44:45] Common themes that get placed for commercials
[47:47] Resources where people can learn about what type of music is getting licensed
[50:12] Process of clearing songs
[54:38] Types of producer arrangements
[1:00:02] How to find a licensing agent
[1:01:44] Getting to know Cathy Heller
[1:05:33] Cathy Heller’s Hollywood Vampires

Quotes from Cathy Heller
“If you have the persistence if you have the grit, and you have the passion for something, it doesn’t matter if you’re the first draft pick, or you’re the 150th draft pick, you’ll become the one that everyone is talking about.”
“All you can do in life is know what your effort is. You don’t really know what’s going to be on the other side of that.”
“To find out that something that you do can change the life for someone else, that’s the ultimate sweetness.”
“How do you be an artist if you don’t get a record deal? That’s the question.”
“There are so many ways to make a living doing what you love.”
“The intersection of you doing something you love, to create, that somebody else goes I find that’s beautiful or I need that, and then they are going to pay you for that. That’s actually not just a way to make money, but maybe even finding your bigger purpose in life.”
“My goal here is to do something authentic, that also tells the stories of other people’s souls.”  
“We lost the respect for discipline.”
“You have to make music that they need.”
“In life, being uncomfortable doesn’t always mean don’t do it.”
“Be resourceful! Your number one resource is not your time, money or connections. It’s you!”
“I purposely make it my choice and my priority to be inspired and happy.”
“It is our responsibility to make sure we have a good day.”

Links to people, places, and things mentioned
Michael Jordan
Don’t Keep Your Day Job [Podcast]
Ron Fair
Jimmy Iovine
Interscope Records
Craig Kallman
Atlantic Records
Ingrid Michaelson
Regina Spektor
Snow Patrol
Grey’s Anatomy  
Ed Sheeran “Castle On The Hill”
This American Life [Podcast]
Ira Glass  
The Access Course
Huck Ingram (Entertainment Attorney)
David Sacks
Billy Joel
Wayne's World Soundtrack  
Amy Porterfield  
Jasmine Star  

Cathy’s Definition of Making It
“Realizing what you have inside of you that really contributes to the world.”

5 Creative DIY Approaches for Musicians in Today’s Music Business

DIY Musician Lessons

This is our second annual Thanksgiving special. In this episode, show producer, Jason Trosclair, joins the show to discuss creative DIY approaches for musicians from past guests. I've gathered some of the best advice about how an independent musician can approach their career on their terms, with their own unique voice. These conversations are extremely valuable because they show you there is more than one way to achieve your goals. Along with some insight from Jason and I, on the topic, this episode includes conversations with:

Joe Pulizzi
Ari Herstand
Shannon Curtis
Dawn Beyer
Kyle Lemaire

Happy Thanksgiving from the Making It crew!

Keep in touch:

Host: Chris Goyzueta (Chris G.)
Producer: Jason Trosclair
Executive Producer: ONElive Creative Agency  
Music: Emily Kopp

Support Making It on Patreon